The Book of Cosmi

Chapter 10: Anguish

| Cosmic |

Why do I hate you? I had plenty of reasons to, I knew that was a message left by Helcurt that Typhon was simply relaying to me. Defectivity of the Gods is a crime worse than anyone could imagine, you're messing with the creators of the Omniverse. Unfortunately when a beast that is created by a being that was on equal grounds with you, it isn't gonna be as simple as erasing them from reality. Helcurt knew what he was doing when he made these Primeval Monsters. Every moment of him running from Heaven was a moment spent planning the DNA complexities, the soul, the form, everything about these Monsters.

As Typhon flew up above and distorted Heaven and reduced it to nothing more than a place of flames and ash just by simply existing, I knew what we were in for. I heard the screams of Juno commanding the army to go all in towards Typhon, but we had forgotten a key detail. Echidna and the other minor Monsters... dammit all. The sky within Heaven began to crack and crumble like glass being broken, claws of dragons came bursting through the broken sky of Heaven. Hundreds of thousands of dragons flew into my Heaven destroying everything in their paths. Every single one was different, they all had different abilities, but most of them lacked any major powers like reality warping or time control or dimensional manipulation. It seemed only Typhon and Echidna were capable of that, which is why we had to keep them down for as long as possible while we, Cosmic and Cosmos kill these distractions. This was a fight we knew we both could not possibly sit out. This was a war that would last for who knows how long at this point, knowing what these dragons were and how powerful us Gods were, it could be an eternity before we reach a conclusion. I made sure that wasn't the case though.

From the corner of my eye I saw Juno dash into the sky, she was going in the direction of Typhon before she took a sharp right and went where Echidna was breaking in. At speeds that exceeded the possibilities of light, Juno smashed her staff into the throat of Echidna before clasping her hands together causing an eruption of light to burst from her staff. This would blind almost every single Primeval Monster in Heaven as well as greatly damage Echidna while she was off guard. Juno kept the mother of the dragons pinned down though, Juno rapidly attacked the dragon until she was flat on the ground, damn near delirious of where she was or even who she was. The issue with these dragons was their sheer size, so us being extremely powerful and small, we were able to dish out some heavy damage.

The moment Juno had caused that burst of light, Cosmos bursted off into the air and went straight for Typhon. Seeing Cosmos in action was something else, the way she fought not only maintained her perpetual elegance, she was always so carefree. Never angry, never sad, just carefree happy, as if it were a game. Serious fighting? Never. Cosmos never fights seriously because she has no reason to. But damn, her attacks were serious, nothing to play around with. The first thing I see her do is form a multitude of daggers between her fingers and throw them out towards Typhon, all of which expanded into the size of a small planet. They hurled towards the Monsters at around the same speed Juno moved at. Upon contact the planet-sized daggers would explode into bursts of light, but afterwards the bursts of light would form into even smaller daggers, much like debris, and would repeat the cycle infinitely. Even when the daggers got smaller, the damage and explosions would remain the same. So for a while Typhon was caught in an extreme monsoon of light explosions that scaled somewhere around Multi-Galaxy destroying level explosions. I could tell Cosmos wanted more fun though, so she spared Typhon the struggle of figuring out how to get out of that and cut it off completely. From there she crash landed in front of the dragon, her puny height of a whopping 175 centimeters compared to a dragon that was probably the size of multiple planets was ironic. It was ironic until Cosmos placed her palm on the scaly skin of Typhon and he went flying like a frisbee. I didn't even see anything else happen except her place her hand on Typhon's scales, but that was the power of Cosmos and I, we can do whatever we please.

I was much more of a simple fighter, I want this war to be leveled down to the two highest threats. Everything else was just flying nuisances that were destroying my precious marble and gold. I, Cosmic, launched myself into the air and whipped out a book from my coat. With a quill of a Heavenly dove, I wrote down in the book and suddenly through the destroyed skies of Heaven beams of sheer Vitality came crashing down on all the "minions" or "children" of Echidna and Typhon. Many would instantly die, some were more persistent than others. All of them that were flying were sent and pinned to the ground where I then wrote in my book once more. After writing, chains appeared around every single Primeval Monster, holding them down and crushing their bodies. The weight of the chains were adjusted to feel like the mass of a universe on them. These chains also spared some damage, the light being emitted from them was no normal light, it was light directly scavenged from the core of my eyes. It burnt worse than anything in the universe, it was essentially torturing the dragons to no return. For those who lived after this, I wrote one more command in my book which would entail one more attack. Simply, perpetual torture for all eternity, I instantly sent them to the pits of Zexaos.

Much like Helcurt... I was a fool. We all have flaws. Us, the Cosmi Twins can be deemed perfect by the many, but it doesn't mean we are. We were created with flaws, we created ourselves with flaws, and so does everything else in the Omniverse. Because perfection just doesn't exist, it can't exist. We tried, but it's impossible, even for our strength levels. I should've known better, I wish I could change my ways, but it was too late. Echidna suddenly came back, kicking Juno back and forth between her hands like a ball on a paddle board. Typhon erupted into rage, disrupting Cosmos and giving him a moment to actually channel energy. As for me, I was surrounded by the strongest of the Monsters that wasn't their mother or father. We were all cornered and against the walls... everything took an extreme turn for the worst. As the Monsters closed in on me... all I could do was hope.

War was grueling.

. . .

It has now been a year since the Primeval Monsters were released. Primeval Monsters, specifically Echidna and Typhon were able to master all the dimensions similar to Cosmos and I and have. We've lost all our warriors but so did Echidna and Typhon. All that was left was Cosmos, Juno, and myself. I knew that scattered about, there were Cosmi Gods around. Hestia was wandering about, Zexaos was in his Inferno, Verri was hiding in the shadows, Chronos was probably elsewhere maintaining the flow of time, Adelina and Thistlehowl had probably been comforting and helping the remaining wildlife that best she could, The Founder was somewhere with Chronos, I guarantee it. Then there were many that were unaccounted for and are presumed dead. At least us three were together. We knew we could kill Echidna and Typhon, but the dragons knew they could easily do the same. As far as we were aware, Typhon and Echidna were the only ones left. Damn this all, the war had to end soon, this isn't good, we have to win, we can't die, if we do the Omniverse dies. This was truly agonizing. I could tell my dear sister was in anguish and so was Juno. I often comforted Cosmos the best I could with my brotherly love and I did the same for Juno. In the eyes of Juno you could see a flaming motivation to kill the mother and father of the Monsters, but you could definitely depict sadness and sorrow. Hestia was her sister, her closest friend for as long as they've existed, Juno knowing that her sister could be dead right now, it's not very easy for Juno to handle, even if she is a war master, a fighting prodigy and anything else. I'd be the same way if I was at risk of losing Cosmos as well.

I trudged slowly across the scorched ground of the realm holding a book in my hand and a quill tightly in my other hand. Cosmos followed slowly behind me and Juno dragged her spear across the ground following right behind. We had off and on fights and encounters between Echidna and Typhon but now we're finally formulating a proper plan. We would have to come up with an idea at this rate, but the question is "What's the plan?" If we add more Cosmi Gods to help us, it'd only taint our strategy and only heighten the chances of mortality, so it was only Cosmos, Juno, and I. The Primeval Monsters aren't immune to erasure of reality but they're engineered from their DNA to have control over reality as well as be immune to Cosmos and I's reality control. It's as if they have armor specifically against Cosmos and I's abilities. Juno on the other hand, I don't know if she's even strong enough to fair with Echidna and Typhon anymore. It's horrifying. We all three sat down and in silence, looked at each other. We had nothing. Hopes were down, any and all dreams of gaining our realm back were dwindling. I started thinking... and I had an idea, an Idea that'd be costly, but something that only Cosmos and I would remember. It all had to do with Juno. The Monsters would be brought to their end and the Gods would rise to the top once more... All I had to do was twist my plan slightly in a way that Cosmos or Juno wouldn't be suspicious of me.

I began explaining the plan I formulated to Cosmos and Juno and they seemed quite on board. I think they were damn tired of this, they looked depressed and upset and miserable. The plan was simple, we located Echidna and Typhon, I personally will confront them alone. I will make Cosmos' and Juno's presence and strength barely existing with the power of my books, they both will take one dragon, Juno on Typhon and Cosmos on Echidna. I would unsuppress their power by simply destroying the page in my book that I wrote on, undoing the suppression and giving Cosmos and Juno full power back and enough leverage to do deathly damage to the two dragons. I would then attack both dragons myself with clones and high degrees of magic as well as utilizing my books. The thing that wasn't picked up by Juno or Cosmos was that I purposely had Juno go against Typhon. Despite Typhon being leagues higher in power than Juno, about as strong as I am actually, in the truest form of reality, Juno was stronger. But that was only under one circumstance. That circumstance would cost her life and the existence of Cosmi Gods. Some Cosmi Gods would remain, but most would go missing from existence because of what I had planned for Juno to do. It's really hard to say how this would happen, but in the end... Juno was our answer.

We progressed in silence, heading towards the red broken sky in the distance. Large amounts of Vitality collected there, it was only safe to assume that's where Typhon and Echidna were residing for now. We had a lot of travel time to go, so we had time to get prepared, there was no rush at all. I held my book firmly in my hands with the quill pressed in between one of the pages. I had two daggers at both left and right sides of my hips, I also had a large golden bow and arrow slung across my back. The arrows the bow fired were given magical properties which when making contact with almost anything, will turn to gold. In addition, I had many bombs tucked away, ready to be used, ready to be thrown, ready to cause damage. Cosmos on the other hand, she had two spears strapped tightly across her back, interestingly enough one was named "Trinity'', I never knew why, but I guess the spear turns into a sentient woman that fights for Cosmos from time to time. My sister also had multiple books on her waist that served the same purpose as my books, and she too had a golden bow. Then she had a necklace that was able to see into the future. She hardly ever uses it because once the future is seen, she knows the fate that is to come. That fate will forever be set in stone and can't be changed, which is why it's so risky for Cosmos to use it. As for Juno, she had one large spear strapped across her back, her Vallen Kigeao crown was set firmly at the side of her waist. The crown was a large source of power for Juno, but also a suppressor keeping her Vitality... Grievance, from getting out of control. The only other notable thing Juno had on her was a red crystal orb. That can't be talked about, it's highly concentrated and unstable, that's all you need to know, that's all anyone needs to know.

As we walked together we had made it quite far in a short amount of time. We were inching closer to Echidna and Typhon faster than I expected, but the sooner this is over the happier we'll all be... in the horizon we could see the red sky grow darker and darker, thunder boomed throughout the surrounding area, the energy in the area became ominous. We were here sooner than I thought. Much sooner. I glanced at Cosmos and Juno and wrote in my book immediately, their power became nearly non-existent. They went off to the left and right and I proceeded forward, further into what could mean the future of everything. I started flying, fast, very fast and within a few moments, there they were.

Typhon and Echidna.

Walking became hard, running wasn't close to being better. I just had to deal with it. The dragons almost immediately noticed me from the get go and they snarled in rage. However, they had noticed I was alone, which could've raised suspicion, but they know they would've felt Juno or Cosmos' power by now... which was what made my plan perfect for this. The dragons were not too smart, not at all, they just had a lot of things going for them, preventing me from doing a lot of damage to them. As I walked closer and closer, the dragons suddenly attacked me. Foolish move on their part. I put up my pinkie and like that, both Echidna and Typhon were stopped in their tracks. A large shockwave surfaced, destroying a ton of things in the shockwaves radius. I looked at the two dragons and scoffed. From there I froze time for them for a brief moment and ripped out the page from my book and destroyed it. Cosmos and Juno were now at max power and were able to fight. It seemed talking to the dragons was not gonna be an option at all. I unfroze the dragons and flew between them, kicking them both away, towards the directions of Juno and Cosmos. I kicked Typhon towards the left, where Juno would be and Echidna to the right, where Cosmos would be. Soon enough, they flew out from the depths of the shadows and began an onslaught upon the dragons. Juno went for Typhon's extremely sensitive eye, smashing it inwards, greatly dazing him and sending the dragon flying backwards. Cosmos had already unveiled both of her spears and threw one into the throat of Echidna and used the other to slash Echidna's throat. I then came through myself once more and summoned two large golden pillars that would serve as fists for me and proceeded to smash them into both the dragons sending them flying away. Cosmos, Juno, and myself got together, close together and got into a fighting stance, this way we wouldn't be caught off guard by the dragons this time, not like the last times. After a few minor seconds, the dragons had regenerated their wounds and were flying towards us, once more, I stopped them with my fingers, this time I threw them straight into the ground, smashing their heads into the rough ground. Juno lunged from my side, using my shoulder as leverage going straight for Typhon, that red orb I mentioned earlier? It'd be extremely handy for her right now. Juno unclipped the red orb from her belt and as she soared through the air she yelled out at the dragons...

"𝐵𝓁𝒾𝓈𝓈 𝑜𝒻 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝒢𝑜𝓁𝒹𝑒𝓃 𝒯𝓌𝒾𝓃𝓈... 𝒢𝓇𝒾𝑒𝓋𝒶𝓃𝒸𝑒."

She tossed the orb and I instantly ran to Cosmos, she did the same and we both shielded ourselves. And then... boom. A large explosion that I assumed could only level a multiverse occurred. It would only be until after the explosion and shockwave settled, that Cosmos and I would notice the degree of the damage. Despite the realm being infinite, this damage stretched on for nearly multiple universes. Everything was destroyed within the range, things were melted away, and the dragons? Their scaly skin was covered in Grievance Radiation, burning them alive slowly. This orb Juno used was a portable fast-use Grievance bomb. The extent of Grievance is so unknown. Not only that, but Grievance wasn't the main part of this bomb, it was simply just infused. Bliss of the Golden Twins? That's a combo attack made by Hestia and Juno together, they're the 'Golden Twins' or other times 'The Priestess and The Master' . It's an extremely powerful attack, Echidna and Typhon just took it on full force, point blank. It was devastating to them... but nonetheless, they persisted. I was shocked that they lived. Cosmos and I dropped our shield and immediately we saw the dragons soaring towards us. Our eyes widened at the same time, I instantly opened my book and began writing something as quick as possible, multiple light daggers would pierce both of the dragons in the throat. Cosmos somehow managed enough time to create a whole set of armor, shield, and weapon out of sheer heavenly light and got an attack on Echidna only. Sadly, our efforts were too much on the offensive... We were knocked away by a slash from Typhon. I felt multiple large cuts, very deep cuts, form all across my chest and face, I was then smacked away from the dragons, and sent flying into the sky and soon after, crashed in the ground. I only got a few glimpses of the moment, but I saw Cosmos get snatched by either Typhon or Echidna and tossed in the same direction as me. I could finally make out some of the damage on Typhon and Echidna, I could mainly make out damage on Echidna, and it was terrible, half of her face was burnt away from Grievance Radiation, you could see the golden blood from her face dripping down to the ground. I could also see half of Echidna's skull beginning to show. As for Typhon, it was about the same amount of damage, just on the opposite side of his face. That Grievance infused bomb really did some damage. Right before I clashed, I saw Juno darting around at speeds far exceeding light, golden blasts of light were being shot from her hands and crashing into the ground, in the matter of seconds I saw tens of thousands of light blasts, crash into the ground causing mass destruction, some also hit the dragons, but she seemed to be rapid firing these light blasts as a distraction more than anything. Then I saw something potentially changing happen... While the dragons were distracted, Juno put on her crown, The Crown of Bellona, her signature crown. A shockwave surfaced across the realm, at this point, I could no longer interfere nor could Cosmos. This was the final stretch of the battle. I could see Juno in the distance, heavenly power was directly channeling into her, a purely golden aura fell upon her body, outlining her perfectly. Her short curly black hair began to float upwards and with all of that gained energy, she dashed toward, crashing right into Typhon and ramming into him, she was moving at such fast speeds that she pushed Typhon and sooner than later sent Typhon crashing into Echidna. She let go of them, sending them flying into the distance. I could not see this, but I sure as hell felt the rumbling of the ground as two large dragons crashed on top of each other and into the ground. But that wasn't the end of it... but I could no longer see what was going on... all I could do at this point was simply hope that Juno could do it.

. . .
| Juno |

Power. Power surged through me like no other time, I wore this crown time and time again, but never used its full potential. I was truly BELLONA at this point! As I had thrown the dragons like little play toys, I knew one had met their final moment. I charged a large amount of energy into my hands, the realm began rumbling aggressively, heavenly light collected into my body and hands and a large javelin began to form in my hands. I gritted my teeth together and once the javelin fully formed it was etching with so much power, it was deadly. Then, I threw it, I threw it as hard as I could possibly throw, and the javelin blitzed at speeds that exceeded light by multiple leagues. As it soared through the atmosphere of the realm, it hit Echidna, head on. The light javelin imploded on itself and bursted into a large beacon of light.

ECHINDA WAS NOW DEAD.

Now it was just Typhon left... my luck would run short at this rate. Typhon blasted upwards from the ground in full fledged rage and rammed right into me. I felt blood come up through my throat. I spat it out onto the dragon as it rammed me. It hurt. I was so hurt. Typhon was so much more powerful than Echidna. The father of the Primeval Monsters was now playing with me like a little godly toy, tossing me around, smacking me around, beating me up to no end. My vision was beginning to go black, I wasn't doing too well, not at all. He finally stopped though and threw me into the ground... to the right of me I saw Cosmic, barely, his eyes were shut and his chest was cut open with gashes from the dragon's claws. Then I saw Cosmos to my left, blood leaking from her mouth and eyes. Sadness fell upon me, what if Hestia was in this position, what if she was dead? Are my two creators dead? All because of these damned dragons? I was feeling hopeless at this point, Typhon was powerful enough to knock out both of the creators of the Omniverse as well as myself, the strongest Cosmi God... had I failed? Is it just the cycle of life occurring? No. Well... yes, it was... but not in the way I thought it was. I stood up slowly, my legs were wobbly, my vision was blurry and everything was spinning around me. Yeah no, I was screwed. Typhon snarled at me and walked slowly towards me on all four of his legs... half of his face was destroyed because of my bomb, but that's the most damage I could ever do to him. I slowly began to back up before being pressed up against rubble, a large obsidian rock. I guess it was the end of the road for me...

Then something hit me. My eyes began to leak something red, it wasn't blood because my blood was golden... my pupils I could feel them shrink, I could feel the whites of my eyes slowly be consumed by this dark void, until my eyes were nothing but just the dark, bloody red of Grievance. My vision was regained, I could see again. My body didn't feel damaged any longer. I felt so strong, so powerful. The world around me was red, completely red, the sky was extremely dark, pitch black actually. I placed my hand against the obsidian rock behind me but it instantly broke. I would nearly collapse back-first, but I caught myself. Typhon stopped moving as a whole, I don't know why, but he was nearly frozen.

I began to step forward, then Typhon stepped back, I stepped forward, Typhon stepped back, I stepped forward, Typhon stepped back, and so on. He kept backing up and up and up. My hands began glowing bright red and my aura became pitch black, all you could see were my red pupils and hands, but suddenly this aura let off a brief shockwave and began to reform into something else. I finally became aware of what was going on...

"𝒪𝒽... 𝒯𝓎𝓅𝒽𝑜𝓃, 𝒶𝓇𝑒 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝓉𝓇𝑒𝓂𝒷𝓁𝒾𝓃𝑔 𝒾𝓃 𝒸𝑜𝓌𝒶𝓇𝒹𝒾𝒸𝑒? 𝐼'𝓁𝓁 𝓈𝒽𝑜𝓌 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝓈𝑜𝓂𝑒𝓉𝒽𝒾𝓃𝑔 𝓈𝓉𝓇𝑜𝓃𝑔𝑒𝓇 𝓉𝒽𝒶𝓃 𝒞𝑜𝓈𝓂𝒾𝒸 𝒶𝓃𝒹 𝒞𝑜𝓈𝓂𝑜𝓈 𝒸𝑜𝓂𝒷𝒾𝓃𝑒𝒹, 𝐼'𝓁𝓁 𝓈𝒽𝑜𝓌 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝓈𝑜𝓂𝑒𝓉𝒽𝒾𝓃𝑔 𝓉𝒽𝒶𝓉 𝒽𝒶𝓈 𝓂𝑜𝓇𝑒 𝓅𝑜𝓌𝑒𝓇 𝓉𝒽𝒶𝓃 𝑒𝓋𝑒𝓇𝓎 𝑔𝑜𝒹 𝓉𝑜 𝑒𝓋𝑒𝓇 𝑒𝓍𝒾𝓈𝓉, 𝒸𝑜𝓂𝒷𝒾𝓃𝑒𝒹. 𝐼 𝒶𝓂 𝒸𝒶𝓁𝓁𝑒𝒹 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝓈𝓉𝓇𝑜𝓃𝑔𝑒𝓈𝓉 𝒞𝑜𝓈𝓂𝒾 𝒢𝑜𝒹 𝒻𝑜𝓇 𝒶 𝓇𝑒𝒶𝓈𝑜𝓃... 𝒜𝓂 𝐼 𝓃𝑜𝓉? 𝒲𝑒 𝒶𝓁𝓁 𝑒𝒶𝓇𝓃𝓉 𝑜𝓊𝓇 𝓉𝒾𝓉𝓁𝑒𝓈 𝒻𝑜𝓇 𝒶 𝓇𝑒𝒶𝓈𝑜𝓃, 𝒷𝓊𝓉 𝓉𝒽𝑒𝓎 𝒽𝒶𝓋𝑒 𝓃𝑜 𝓅𝓊𝓇𝓅𝑜𝓈𝑒 𝓊𝓃𝓉𝒾𝓁 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝓅𝓇𝑜𝓋𝑒 𝓉𝒽𝒶𝓉 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝒶𝓇𝑒 𝓌𝑜𝓇𝓉𝒽𝓎 𝑜𝒻 𝓉𝒽𝑒𝓂, 𝓈𝑜 𝓉𝒽𝒾𝓈... 𝒯𝒽𝒾𝓈 𝓌𝒾𝓁𝓁 𝒷𝑒 𝓂𝓎 𝓅𝓇𝑜𝑜𝒻 𝓉𝑜 𝓎𝑜𝓊, 𝒯𝓎𝓅𝒽𝑜𝓃, 𝓉𝒽𝒶𝓉 𝐼 𝒶𝓂 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝓌𝒽𝒶𝓉 𝐼 𝓈𝑒𝑒𝓂, 𝒷𝓊𝓉 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝓈𝓉𝓇𝑜𝓃𝑔𝑒𝓈𝓉 𝒞𝑜𝓈𝓂𝒾 𝒢𝑜𝒹 𝓉𝑜 𝑒𝓋𝑒𝓇 𝑒𝓍𝒾𝓈𝓉. 𝒴𝑜𝓊 𝓌𝒾𝓁𝓁 𝒷𝑒 𝒾𝓃𝓁𝒶𝒾𝒹 𝓊𝓅𝑜𝓃 𝓉𝒽𝒾𝓈 𝓇𝑒𝒶𝓁𝓂 𝒻𝑜𝓇𝑒𝓋𝑒𝓇 𝒶𝓃𝒹 𝑒𝓋𝑒𝓇, 𝒻𝑜𝓇 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝓇𝑒𝓈𝓉 𝑜𝒻 𝑒𝓉𝑒𝓇𝓃𝒾𝓉𝓎."

Grievance engulfed my body like a virus spreading throughout someone's cells. This form I was taking I'd like to call it... "Grievance God."

I put the palm of my hand out towards Typhon, and he'd be frozen in time. I smirked devilishly. Energy began to collect, hatred began to form, power from the core of power itself collected into my very palm, forming into one small orb the size of maybe a tennis ball. A horrific sound would begin to occur, it was like the eeriness of space itself, the ambiance of the Omniverse. Then, I threw the orb, but it moved pretty slowly, only about five kilometers per hour. As the orb moved, everything in its path would slowly be erased out of reality, the atom of every element in the way of the orb was destroyed and erased from reality. As the orb finally reached contact with Typhon, everything went black with red veins branching out from everywhere...

An explosion that was capable of destroying the entire Omniverse occurred, some outer multiverses would be hit, but most of the damage would be contained in the realm, taking a huge hit on it. This infinite realm would soon be cut down into a not-so infinite realm, it would only remain about the size of a singular multiverse. Every Cosmi God known except very few would be erased from reality, including Juno herself. Typhon and Echidna were never to be seen again... everything that was known here, was now forgotten, never to see again. Everything was dead. All that remained were a few Cosmi Gods and of course Cosmic and Cosmos. With Helcurt erased from reality and the Primeval Monsters no longer in existence, a new age would begin... This age would be something more than just simply a "new age" but something that would mark history books more than Typhon and Echidna ever could...